with google and the numerous things we can find on google ie packaging tips, scripts and codes and appdeploys packaging KB

will it be fair to say that we packagers are spoon fed

many many years ago
my boss said there you go son, this is your media can you create a package

my reply: yes boss it will be ready ASAP

I decided to while away my time pretending to be busy and after 5 hours went home had a nice meal( chicken curry) very nice indeeed

next day I came in to work and remembered holy @@@@ I have an app to do

all I did then was google, appdeploy and bingo my app was all done


so my question is as an msi packager are we spoon fed
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ofcourse not! sometimes you really need the help of others. since not all problems are the same, therefore you cannot resolve some of the problems by yourself.. it depends on how you use your resources [:D][:D]
Answered 09/28/2010 by: Hits?
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As someone who has been creating packages for years, I can say that AppDeploy [and the like] are definitely great resources, but one must also be able to rely on his own skill, training, and art. Let's face it- packaging is an art. AppDeploy and Mr. Google have some good "brush strokes", but the package comes from the creator. I'll admit that the tools we have today make life much easier, but they were created because we needed/wanted them, and we as a community helped build all of it. [8|]
Answered 09/28/2010 by: cblake
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cygan,

With the Internet being what it is and information readily availbe in various forms - is there an IT job that can't be googled for the answer?

You still need the knowledge and experience to apply the answer you find.

We have great resources now, like AppDeploy, but through the grace of people like Bob and the posters on the fora here - it just makes life a bit easier, that's all.

Dunnpy
Answered 09/28/2010 by: dunnpy
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are we spoon fed If that were true, we wouldn't see the junk that passes for packages from vendors, nor some of the brain-dead questions we get here and on other fora.
Answered 09/28/2010 by: VBScab
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ofcourse not! sometimes you really need the help of others. since not all problems are the same, therefore you cannot resolve some of the problems by yourself.. it depends on how you use your resources


very valid point. I have seen forums where people have given valid steps and solutions but the packager who posted the question still could not grasp what was posted
Answered 09/28/2010 by: cygan
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nor some of the brain-dead questions we get here and on other fora.


ian you are right on this one. yes some of the questions posted by newbies have been shocking but hey we all started from somewhere

as per vendors I would say I rest my case
Answered 09/28/2010 by: cygan
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You still need the knowledge and experience to apply the answer you find.

hi dunnpy

so you are talking about application - how we apply answers that are given to us

and yes you are right . with experience comes the know how on how to apply the answers given
Answered 09/28/2010 by: cygan
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packaging is an art

hi cblake

when you say "art" I guess you are referring to skill/ experience

but remember you could be in a packager role for 5 yrs and maybe not exposed to high level packaging

I believe msi packaging should be based on what you are exposed to in packaging ie apps packaged and problems resolved

not a packaging duration of 5yrs and no quality
Answered 09/28/2010 by: cygan
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"Spoon fed" would imply to me that someone is giving me just the right amount of what I need, each time, until I don't need anymore. From that perspective, no one where I am just gives me the solution for each packaging problem - I have to find it myself. And since the application packaging engineer position is always evolving (not fixed), and packaging has an artistic form along with the technological application of bits and bytes, I would say that we are definitely not spoon fed.
Answered 09/28/2010 by: bearden3
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but remember you could be in a packager role for 5 yrs and maybe not exposed to high level packaging

can you really?

when working in a packaging role for 5 years, wouldn't the law of (hopefully) large numbers dictate that you'd run in to at least some challenges?
The key to me is challenging yourself, or being challenged. If you're packaging in a vacuum for 5 years, you could conceivably be making the same silly mistakes for 5 years, but are you then a packager?

also, in those 5 years, I'd say if you were making some faulty packages, you'd have had plenty of time to be faced with the results of your work, and this if nothing else should spur you to improve the quality of your packages...
Answered 09/28/2010 by: pjgeutjens
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I described someone I worked with as "someone who knows how to produce an MSI from authoring software, but not a packager." I thought it quite succint.
hey we all started from somewhereAt no stage in what is laughingly called my career in IT have I asked the kind of idiot questions I see. Don't get me wrong: I'm really not setting myself up as some kind of genius but honestly, the abject bone-idleness of some people is a vision to behold. Take a look at some of the questions posed in the 'Scripting' forum, for example.
Answered 09/29/2010 by: VBScab
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My old teacher had a good saying in regards to this, The art is not to know it all, but to know where to look when you get stuck..


Alot of people have no idea how to use search tools, and that is why we are needed and there will always be people that have no clue what to search for where.
Yea, packaging should be simple as pie these days, but at times, its not. there are always packages that you ripp your hair off from. But hey, its part of the job. ;)

//Eirik
Answered 09/29/2010 by: xandor
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there are always packages that you ripp your hair off from

and thank God for that or we'd all be out of a job, replaced by the so called packaging robots
This special-case, bitches of packages are the ones I count on to keep me employed for awhile yet [:)]
Answered 09/29/2010 by: pjgeutjens
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ORIGINAL: xandor

My old teacher had a good saying in regards to this, The art is not to know it all, but to know where to look when you get stuck..


AMEN!

I would not call myself a good packager and many times I have come to this site and searched diligently for the answer. I always feel it sticks better if you need to dig.

Wow I just realized i have been coming to this board for 5 years and this is only my second post. Even though the last two years i was forced to be just a system admin and didn't package I still want to say thank you for all the help!



ǝɯıʇ ǝǝɹɟ ɥɔnɯ ooʇ ǝʌɐɥ noʎ sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı


I've been able to read upside down ever since my teachers started making me sit in the front row....
Answered 09/30/2010 by: jnoxon1
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I've been able to read upside down ever since my teachers started making me sit in the front row....

It's more for my amusement, I just like to imagine people standing on their head in their desk chairs while they read appdeploy [;)]
Answered 09/30/2010 by: pjgeutjens
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Wow I just realized i have been coming to this board for 5 years and this is only my second post. Even though the last two years i was forced to be just a system admin and didn't package I still want to say thank you for all the help!

how many other packagers have just realized that they have been using appdeploy for over 5 yrs [:D]
Answered 10/01/2010 by: cygan
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ORIGINAL: cygan
how many other packagers have just realized that they have been using appdeploy for over 5 yrs  [:D]



Hmm, i used it for about a year a few years back, but then i stopped working with packaging, but now im back to it, so guess i'll be getting there in a while hehe
Answered 10/01/2010 by: xandor
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I am using this forum since 2006. But recently i have registered (Everytime i got the answer when i search). Thanks to Appdeploy.
Answered 10/01/2010 by: reethu005
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I have been used AppDeploy resources for the last five years. It made my job easier than ever. AppDeploy is my primary tech support. Thanks for the great resources.
Answered 10/01/2010 by: NACM
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I have been used AppDeploy resources for the last five years. It made my job easier than ever. AppDeploy is my primary tech support. Thanks for the great resources.

hope you will remember to make a contribution to appdeploy as well in the next five years [:D]
Answered 10/04/2010 by: cygan
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ORIGINAL: pjgeutjens

there are always packages that you ripp your hair off from

and thank God for that or we'd all be out of a job, replaced by the so called packaging robots
This special-case, bitches of packages are the ones I count on to keep me employed for awhile yet [:)]


Januari this year, I started working for a company that sells a so-called Packaging Robot. Indeed these "robots" can't (re)package everything and the special-case apps provide me with enough work to fix those apps for our customers as they usually don't have a lot in-house packaging experience.

However, half of the time I don't even have to work on the special case apps and it's the regular apps (in packaging difficulty) that I have to fix, because the customers absolutely have no clue what to do with them. Not even the basic knowledge to say: this app won't work in app-v because it installs a driver for example.

So, in my opinion, even when using a packaging robot you should at least have "some" packaging knowledge / insight. Otherwise the robot does little more than slightly increase the percentage of working apps that you can blindly run through a wizard (be it wise, installshield or the robot).

When you "do" know what you're doing, the robot can save you time though, by doing all the brain dead actions for you (some minor cleaning, some basic QA, create certain custom actions that need minimal input, do sccm import, optionally even create documentation and revert/prep machines). Sales departments just think differently about it.... And the robots will never "learn" you to package either.
Answered 10/05/2010 by: Rheuvel
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Anyone who can deliver working goods on time, no matter what method, what way...
Answered 10/08/2010 by: Repackman
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I hope you don't service your own car, too. Or anyone else's, for that matter.
Answered 10/09/2010 by: VBScab
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However, half of the time I don't even have to work on the special case apps and it's the regular apps (in packaging difficulty) that I have to fix, because the customers absolutely have no clue what to do with them. Not even the basic knowledge to say: this app won't work in app-v because it installs a driver for example.


with app-v, I was thinking you could app-v the the software and install the drivers manually
Answered 10/13/2010 by: cygan
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ORIGINAL: cygan
so my question is as an msi packager are we spoon fed


If a packager happens to find themselves working in a Radia (HPCAE) shop, they are definitely NOT spoon fed. Even Google has to try it's hardest to find any information about errors or problems packagers have with Radia.
Answered 10/13/2010 by: bearden3
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If a packager happens to find themselves working in a Radia (HPCAE) shop, they are definitely NOT spoon fed. Even Google has to try it's hardest to find any information about errors or problems packagers have with Radia.


BINGO - the penny has dropped

I have just started using Radia for about 8 months now and to be frank Radia is a Bear
the Radia infrastructure is another kettle of fish.

why why and why can't we find info on radia on google

very very very valid point bearden
Answered 10/13/2010 by: cygan
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ORIGINAL: cygan

However, half of the time I don't even have to work on the special case apps and it's the regular apps (in packaging difficulty) that I have to fix, because the customers absolutely have no clue what to do with them. Not even the basic knowledge to say: this app won't work in app-v because it installs a driver for example.


with app-v, I was thinking you could app-v the the software and install the drivers manually



Yes, of course, at least half of the time that would be an option as well.
I wrote that with some "package" in the back of my mind that enables secure internet banking (3 driver installs + shortcut to webpage), imho no point at all in virtualizing anything here ;)
Answered 10/14/2010 by: Rheuvel
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I've been packaging for about two years now, and I always tell people that a packager only learns how to package the current app he/she is working on, and then you start over with the next package, and so on, as if you're always looping through the learning curve. Granted, you acquire a bag of tricks from experience, so you're not starting at the very bottom of the learning curve each time, but there is a definite sense of each package making you "start over" in a sense.
Answered 10/14/2010 by: RonW
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i guess the question really is, how many ppl actually know how to package.

The cosmetic wrapped up thing that delivers files and registry may not always be worthy of the title "package" there is still plenty of crap out there

repackagers have an easy life. vendor / sdlc packagers have the real work to sort out. If your getting bored repackaging try an SDLC shop it should keep you amused for a few more days..
Answered 10/15/2010 by: jmcfadyen
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I have just started using Radia for about 8 months now and to be frank Radia is a Bear
the Radia infrastructure is another kettle of fish.

I've been saying that Radia is a BEAST, not a bear! There are so many things that can go wrong when bringing a perfectly good MSI into Radia. No spoon feeding here for sure. But as a packager it keeps me employed and it keeps me on my toes too.
Answered 10/15/2010 by: bearden3
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Thank heavens that the site I'm currently at recently decided that all new packages will be pushed by SCCM. For them, Radia will die a quiet death over the next year or so.
Answered 10/16/2010 by: VBScab
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repackagers have an easy life.

how easy ?
Answered 10/25/2010 by: cygan
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Thank heavens that the site I'm currently at recently decided that all new packages will be pushed by SCCM. For them, Radia will die a quiet death over the next year or so.


good on them to leave the beast called radia
Answered 10/26/2010 by: cygan
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ORIGINAL: jmcfadyen
i guess the question really is, how many ppl actually know how to package.


With virtualisation becoming more popular, the need for a packager, or at least packaging know how, will become obsolete.
Answered 03/07/2011 by: reds4eva
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With virtualisation becoming more popular, the need for a packager, or at least packaging know how, will become obsolete.

I don't think that's necessarily true, you still need the same sort of skills to create decent virtualised apps, be it app-v, xenapp, thinapp, etc

At the end of the day anyone can call themselves a packager by churning out 20 snapshots a day and not having any clue as to how windows installer works.

Same with virtualisation anyone can churn out snapshots!

But If I were an employer I'd want someone who understands the mechanics of the technologies in use, i.e a decent packager
Answered 03/08/2011 by: timmsie
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I can teach a monkey to "package" 70% of the stuff out there. I make my money on the other 30% and knowing which packages are good for a lacky. I have personally given up on trying to convicne my company you pay for quality. They make money off doing the bare minimum amount of work to keep the ship afloat. And yes i am open to other opportunities....[;)]
Answered 03/08/2011 by: sbequette
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Fresh out of college i was hired to be a packager...i had technical background as an network administrator, however knew nothing about packs. No Spoon Feeding here either...i had to learn and i am still leaning everyday. To be a packager you need to develop a special mix of skills and be a good troubleshooter, and yes, Google helps and lot, and the amount of information out there is too vast, so you will need another special skill, learn how to filter the junk info from the real meat that can help you out of trouble..
Answered 03/08/2011 by: latino_packager
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I can teach a monkey to "package" 70% of the stuff out thereWas it one of yours who posted yesterday about how to re-package Office 2010? LOL
Answered 03/09/2011 by: VBScab
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ORIGINAL: bearden3

I have just started using Radia  for about  8 months now and to be frank Radia is a Bear
the Radia infrastructure is another kettle of fish.

I've been saying that Radia is a BEAST, not a bear!  There are so many things that can go wrong when bringing a perfectly good MSI into Radia.  No spoon feeding here for sure.  But as a packager it keeps me employed and it keeps me on my toes too.



I've just started in the last few months as the only 'packager' in the project (a big project), using RADIA. I was supposed to be learning on the job for 3 months, but our contractor packager got a new job a week or so after I started lol. Let the packager experts feel pitty for me.
Answered 03/09/2011 by: MarcusPiper
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we are in the dark ages, managers are still pondering Office 2010....[&:],
I have tried to instill ask the seniour people first but they are monkeys.
Answered 03/09/2011 by: sbequette
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IMHO, the number one thing to remember is to NOT use Radia as the packaging tool. Use it to distribute the package. Use your favorite packaging tool like WPS or AdminStudio to create the MSI/MST/MSP and then Publish the Windows Installer package into HP OVCM/CAE (aka "Radia"). Also, on the ZCREATE line, I like to put the MSI logging so that I don't have to try to dig through the convoluted Radia logs.
Answered 03/09/2011 by: bearden3
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ORIGINAL: bearden3

IMHO, the number one thing to remember is to NOT use Radia as the packaging tool.  Use it to distribute the package.  Use your favorite packaging tool like WPS or AdminStudio to create the MSI/MST/MSP and then Publish the Windows Installer package into HP OVCM/CAE (aka "Radia").  Also, on the ZCREATE line, I like to put the MSI logging so that I don't have to try to dig through the convoluted Radia logs.


Yeah we use WPS to create the packages. We use "/QN" in the ZCREATE - I'll have to put the logging in there too - thanks.
Answered 03/10/2011 by: MarcusPiper
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If you pay monkeys, you get peanuts!
Al
Answered 03/11/2011 by: AB
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ORIGINAL: AB

If you pay monkeys, you get peanuts!


I thought it was bananas [:o]
Answered 03/17/2011 by: AngelD
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ORIGINAL: AngelD

ORIGINAL: AB

If you pay monkeys, you get peanuts!


I thought it was bananas [:o]


If you pay bananas, you get peanuts!
That doesn't make sense...
Al
;)
Answered 03/30/2011 by: AB
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So, as a packager, how many do you make on average per month? I mean the number of packages.
Answered 03/30/2011 by: GrGrGr
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